OU Suspect Testing Round 2 Voter Identification and Suspect Nominations

Status
Not open for further replies.

SJCrew

Believer, going on a journey...
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Just missed the cutoff, but I have a few noms.

Drizzle: The holy haymaker that dominated the entirety of Round 2. I've tested so many different variations of Rain teams that I've forgotten how to use anything else. My conclusion: there are way, way too many things that can abuse Rain. Electric Pokemon that can now use Thunder, Tornelos, who suddenly rises ranks from 'outclassed' to 'incredible', Steel Pokemon losing their Fire weakness, and the worst of them all, Swift Swim sweepers.

Any variation of these teams can be used to great effect. They don't even have to have very good synergy. I've used multiple teams with no kind of Electric resist and still managed to win by simply OHKOing or 2HKOing the Pokemon packing it. The only kinds of teams that can put up a good fight against Rain are other weather teams, where the battle comes straight down to the player keeping their weather abuser alive
the longest.

The only problem is that Rain has an innate advantage vs. Sand; both Sand inducers are weak to Water attacks. You have to keep coming in on the revenge or something else that doesn't seem quite so threatening. But you just never know whether or not you're going to switch into a Water attack or something else your inducer is weak to.

After the weather war is done with, there's no argument as to who wins: the Rain player. There aren't too many practical methods to stop Pokemon with double speed and a 50% STAB boost. Even worse, the sweepers outside of it that abuse that advantage indirectly by not having a Fire weakness, getting an overpowered Thunder to abuse, or even Hurricane.

Swift Swim sweepers alone aren't the problem, it's Rain teams period. No matter where you shift the blame, the common denominator is going to be Drizzle. We can't have a healthy metagame so long as permanent Rain is in the equation.

Latios: I never predicted this thing would be as much of a problem as it is now. You have no idea what move it's going to use while it's out, or what the opponent is thinking of when they see your team in the viewer, you just know that there's a pretty good chance something will die. You can predict correctly as many times as you want, but you can't stop it until it's dead. It switches in on so many things and just kills them with Draco Meteor that it's almost guaranteed to cause a ridiculous amount of problems throughout the game unless you can get a Specially Defensive Tyranitar or Scizor in and Pursuit it on the way out.

In addition, Latios can break any wall in the game and no sweeper can switch into him safely. And this is just from simply giving him a Choice Specs and clicking an attack. On top of that, he's too fast for what he does; he'd be much easier to switch into or revenge if he had poor speed and couldn't get the 2HKO off, but 110 is faster than almost anything in this metagame that isn't a weather sweeper or Choice Scarfer (and remember what I said about sweepers not being able to switch into him?)

No matter who wins the prediction war, the Latios player has the initiative and can continue weakening any team of any kind to ensure random sweepers have an easier time finishing the job. When both players have Latios, it's a complete crapshoot as to who you're going to sacrifice to and what's going to get the sweep afterward, to the effect that the entire game is just one big gamble. This is uncompetitive as all hell and indicative of an Uber in our midst. Latios needs to be banned.
 
Missed the cutoff as I can't run PO on my Mac and school started back about a week ago, but I did play throughout December and such.

Drizzle: The holy haymaker that dominated the entirety of Round 2. I've tested so many different variations of Rain teams that I've forgotten how to use anything else. My conclusion: there are way, way too many things that can abuse Rain. Electric Pokemon that can now use Thunder, Tornelos, who suddenly rises ranks from 'outclassed' to 'incredible', Steel Pokemon losing their Fire weakness, and the worst of them all, Swift Swim sweepers.

Any variation of these teams can be used to great effect. They don't even have to have very good synergy. I've used multiple teams with no kind of Electric resist and still managed to win by simply OHKOing or 2HKOing the Pokemon packing it. The only kinds of teams that can put up a good fight against Rain are other weather teams, where the battle comes straight down to the player keeping their weather abuser alive
the longest.

The only problem is that Rain has an innate advantage vs. Sand; both Sand inducers are weak to Water attacks. You have to keep coming in on the revenge or something else that doesn't seem quite so threatening. But you just never know whether or not you're going to switch into a Water attack or something else your inducer is weak to.

After the weather war is done with, there's no argument as to who wins: the Rain player. There aren't too many practical methods to stop Pokemon with double speed and a 50% STAB boost. Even worse, the sweepers outside of it that abuse that advantage indirectly by not having a Fire weakness, getting an overpowered Thunder to abuse, or even Hurricane.

Swift Swim sweepers alone aren't the problem, it's Rain teams period. No matter where you shift the blame, the common denominator is going to be Drizzle. We can't have a healthy metagame so long as permanent Rain is in the equation.
SJCrew has summed up my thoughts nicely here, so I only have one more thing to add.

Even if Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops, etc, are not individually broken in rain, the strategy of using them all on the same team is akin to a Double-Dragon strategy on steroids and without need of steel-trapping support. Drizzle is the only way this strategy can be pulled off, as 8-turn rain simply isn't enough time. It is yet another way in which Drizzle breaks the metagame.

Thus, I support Aldaron's Proposal of banning the use of Drizzle and Swift Swim on the same team. If 8-Turn Rain still proves to be broken, Drizzle and the Swift Swim abusers can be dealt with accordingly then.

Deoxys-N: I'm nominating this in support of its retrieval from Ubers back into OU. For specifics, Capefeather summed up my thoughts well, and it still stands that it did not receive a fair test last gen since everyone was in the "former Ubers are still Ubers" mindset (which proved to be largely true). It has difficulty switching in, it doesn't hit as hard as Deoxys-A, and the added "bulk" is irrelevant when it is still forced to take LO Surfs and even walls are using powerful STAB moves left and right (Gliscor's Acrobat, Nattorei's Gyro Ball, etc).

Manaphy: I am not nominating Manaphy either way, but am bolding it so that this will be seen. Manaphy is significantly more dangerous under the conditions of Drizzle, meaning that if the ability gets the boot Manaphy may be tolerable. Should Aldaron's Proposal follow through, Manaphy can then go, but I would like to point out that should a Drizzle-less metagame ever arise, Manaphy should be tested thoroughly in it as the largest part of its success is unequivocally Rain.
 

Celestavian

Smooth
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Made it to 1334 before falling some 100 points. My nomination:

Rankurusu: I don't know why I feel so conflicted about nominating a non-legend, non-weather sweeper for Uber, seeing as it sounds absurd to nominate this thing. But yet, when you can't OHKO it with anything besides Specs DM from Latios at +0, then perhaps there's a problem. It sets up on everything ranging from Nattorei to Roobushin to even Tyranitar. It will Recover stall you until you're blue in the face, and traditional methods of stopping sweeps like Toxic and Leech seed are rendered useless by Magic Guard. Seriously, without Magic Guard, this thing would be stoppable at least, but that isn't the point or the case. Simply put, for a generation that introduced all this epic power people keep complaining about, Rankurusu doesn't mind or get OHKOed by any of it.
 

Bad Ass

Custom Title
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis the 2nd Grand Slam Winneris a Past SPL Championis a Three-Time Past WCoP Champion
mamoswine_e

you are all terrible

edit: and massively incompetent

I agree with Aldaron's proposal.
 

cosmicexplorer

pewpewpew
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I didn't make the cutoff; I had no time, as I had to study for my exams just as the round neared its end. However, I do have a few nominations.

I'd like to nominate Drizzle. Although SJCrew took the words right out of my mouth, I'd really like to draw more attention to the power of Rain sweepers besides Swift Swimmers. That seems to have gone under the radar of those proposing a Swift Swim ban or something similar. The huge benefits that Rain brings to so many pokemon, boosting their Water moves and the accuracy of Thunder or Hurricane, makes them just as difficult to deal with as Swift Swimmers, albeit more susceptible to revenge killing, but even that can be mitigated with Agility or other speed-boosting moves, not to mention the benefits that rain brings to defensive pokemon, making even uninvested Water-type moves quite powerful and removing the weakness to Fire that cripples many Steel-types. If Swift Swim is banned, Rain offense will remain hugely powerful, and in any case, Swift Swim is not what's broken, the overpowering part is Drizzle, giving such huge benefits to so many pokemon.

I'd also like to nominate Latios. Choice Specs Draco Meteor OHKOs or completely cripples everything commonly used but for Steels, TTar, and Blissey/Chansey, while its extra coverage moves in Surf and Hidden Power Fire make only Specially defensive TTar and Blissey Chansey good switch-ins, all of which are crippled by being Tricked a Choice item. It's impossible to deal with effectively outside of switching in Tyranitar or Scizor on a predicted Draco Meteor and Pursuiting it, both of which require spot-on prediction to work. It's far too powerful for OU, even without Soul Dew.

Finally, I'd like to nominate Doryuuzu. I honestly don't understand how this pokemon wasn't banned last cycle; in a sandstorm, which is all too easy to get up, it outspeeds literally everything, and access to Swords Dance, along with Rock Slide and STAB Earthquake from 135 base Attack, allows it to heavily damage or KO every pokemon that switches in outside of Gliscor and Skarmory. Both of those are also used to check numerous other threats, making them all too easy to lure out and KO, especially with Team Preview. A Balloon makes Hippowdon only able to Roar it out while taking significant damage, allowing Doryuuzu to KO it next switch in, while Hippo is also used to check many other threats, making it highly unlikely that it'll be at high enough health to take a +2 Doryuuzu anyway. A Chople Berry, however little used, makes Specs Lucario and Iron Fist Roobushin easy pickings for Dory, making more of its "counters" useless. Doryuuzu's mix of insane speed and Attack, coupled with its great coverage in Earthquake and Rock Slide alone, makes it far too powerful for OU play.
 
Confirming as Morty Morty Morty

I would like to nominate Manaphy. I think Manaphy has given rain an undeserved reputation of being overpowered because of its inability to be statused, bulk, instant full recovery in rest, and access to tail glow. This thing cannot be stopped by any conventional ways of stopping a sweeper and in addition to all this rain powers its stab to insane levels. I believe that rain opens up a new metagame fo a lot of interesting pokemon and should be given a chance to be tested without Manaphy in it.
 

shrang

General Kenobi
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I played horribly this round, I feel like Dinara Safina right now, heh. Whatever, nominations:

Politoed:

From my last nomination:
While some people are advocating to ban a few rain sweepers first (like Manaphy) then test Drizzle, I believe Drizzle is thing that is pushing these rain sweepers over the edge. With the rain boost, Swift Swim abusers essentially get the equivalent of an Agility and Cheer Up boost (on their Water STAB) while Hydration abusers get an unlimited Lum Berry. While problem Pokemon like Kingdra and Manaphy are extremely powerful outside of rain, I believe they are still manageable but rain pushes them over the edge. For example, I've been using Modest Choice Specs Kingdra in my battles. If rain was not present, you'd have a Pokemon with similar power to Choice Specs Latias with better STABs, but less bulk and speed. However, with the rain boost, it is ridiculous, obliterating virtually all offensive teams while breaking down walls of a lot of defensive ones. Blissey and Chansey are possibly the only Pokemon that can reliably switch into it, even Nattorei is taking ~40% from Hydro Pump, meaning it can only switch it once reliably. While you can say "ban Kingdra" instead, without the rain, Kingdra is far more manageable. Firstly, it is pretty easily revenge killed (269 Speed is mediocre), secondly, without the STAB boost on Water-type moves, Pokemon like Nattorei can more easily wall it. Rain is the thing that makes the Pokemon broken, not the Pokemon itself. EDIT: I'll just expand on why Manaphy is broken in the rain and not necessarily so out of rain just so I can explain why it's rain and not Manaphy. Without the rain, Manaphy has +3 Tail Glow, decent coverage, great bulk and good Speed. After a Tail Glow boost, 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Timid Manaphy's stat spread is 342/212/236/747/236/328. Now if we look at Garchomp after a Swords Dance, a Pokemon who (at the moment) doesn't seem broken, his stat spread (4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe Jolly) after a Swords Dance is 358/718/226/178/206/333. The difference in stats aren't all that great, and while Garchomp has a bigger exploitable weakness than Manaphy, Manaphy finds itself walled by Blissey like most special sweepers (and it has worse coverage than Chomp), so they are comparable. Outside the rain, +3 Surf from Manaphy is 4HKOing Nattorei while in the rain it has a chance to 2HKO with some hazards up. Calm Mind Manaphy is another Pokemon that is a whole different story in the rain from out of rain. With Drizzle support, Manaphy can Rest as it pleases and has space an extra moveslot for a precious coverage move (usually Ice Beam). Without Drizzle support, the same Manaphy runs Rain Dance/Calm Mind/Water STAB/Rest, a largely toned down version because rain is only last 5 (or 8) turns, so Manaphy needs to manually turn on the rain, so it can't Rest as it pleases, while without the extra coverage move, it's going to be walled by a host of extra Pokemon. This said, Manaphy is broken because of the rain and not necessarily by itself.
While it does say Drizzle in nomination, I'm specifically nominating Politoed to be banned, not Drizzle. This is because I believe that we should be banning the Pokemon, which is the whole package, instead something that is in its repetoire. We're not banning stuff like Outrage on Salamence or Draco Meteor on Latios just to balance them, so neither should we be banning Drizzle only to balance Politoed. While you may say we banned Inconsistent, I believe Inconsistent was banned because it made the game uncompetitive and was virtually a ban using the Evasion Clause, not because it was broken.


Tyranitar / Hippowdon:

Similar to my Politoed nomination, I'm starting to believe that Sandstorm itself is now broken and as a result, we should ban the inducers. I don't think I should get started on Doryuuzu, if you want an explanation on why it's broken under the Sand, I'll enclose my nomination from last round after. Landlos is the 2nd Pokemon that's broken in the Sand. With either Rock Polish or Swords Dance, it can easily sweep a team. With SD, even the bulkiest physical walls like Hippowdon, Skarmory and Gliscor are all OHKOed, while with Rock Polish, it is virtually impossible to revenge-kill without using stuff like Ice Shard or something. Even without an SD boost, Landlos with Sand Power activated is hitting harder than Groudon is (When using Earthquake or Stone Edge, which is all it really needs). Now if we remove Sandstorm, Landlos will still be very powerful, but it won't be hitting anywhere near as hard and we can all use our conventional physical walls to defeat it once more. Apart from Dory and Landlos, we have other stuff that Sandstorm could potentially tip from a very good Pokemon to borderline broken. Garchomp can potentially dodge a hit with Sand Veil and win the game by itself, Terakion gets a Special Defense boost which allows it to setup on weaker bulky Waters and proceed to sweep are all smaller but still notable advantages that Sandstorm provides. This needs to go, and the way to do that, I believe, is to remove the inducers.

Dory nomination from last round:
Doryuuzu - Doryuuzu is a ridiculous sweeper. In the Sand (which is EXTREMELY COMMON), is virtually impossible to revenge kill without using Fighting or Water priority, or packing a Pokemon like Gliscor, Skarmory, Bronzong or Hippowdon whom all can be beaten with a resist berry or a bit of luck. Fighting priority from a Pokemon like Roobushin can be mitigated by letting Doryuuzu hold a Chople Berry, Water STAB a Passho Berry while Gliscor and Hippowdon are beaten if Doryuuzu holds a Balloon. This leads Skarmory and Bronzong, who must at absolute mint condition to take on Doryuuzu (Skarmory takes 40.72% - 48.20% from LO Adamant +2 Rock Slide). While it can be said that Doryuuzu can't hold all Life Orb/Chople Berry/Passho Berry/Balloon and have a Jolly/Adamant nature at the same, the point is that multiple Pokemon has be used to check Doryuuzu since he can find a way to get past specific checks. With the check gone, there is virtually nothing outside something ridiculous like Choice Scarf Golduck or something like that and it can easily sweep. While I don't want to go back to the 4th gen Uber Characteristics, I'd like say that because of this Doryuuzu can sweep an opponent's team with little effort.
Latios:

This thing is just nuts. Specs Draco Meteor severely dents everything that switches into it. With Base 110 Speed, it is also outspeeding a large proportion of the metagame. There are two sets that believe to be broken, one being the Specs set, which nukes everything apart from Blissey and Chansey (who gets crippled to hell and back with Trick), and the LO + 3 attacks set:

Latios @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
-Draco Meteor
-Psycho Shock
-Surf
-Recover

This Latios set not only hits like a truck, but can also check virtually any threat slower than it except for Nattorei. It has the ability to switch attack and could even go on a sweep late game. Want Birijion countered, you got it. Want Terakion checked?? You got it. Want Garchomp checked?? You got it. Want something to blast holes?? You got it. Basically, this Latios can do almost everything apart from a few exceptions in the metagame.


Furthermore, I am supporting the retest of Deoxys-N. While I know it is very likely to be found broken again, the reason I am supporting this is because I feel it was very unfairly judged. By reading the previous nominations, the reason is banned was because Deoxys-A was banned, and it is similar to Deoxys-A. However, no-one said it was actually better than or equal to Deoxys-A (people did say "it's about the same", but that is really vague). I'm sorry, but the logic used here is appalling. In my mindset at least, Deoxys-N is an inferior Pokemon to Deoxys-A and I'm quite sure a lot of people would share this sentiment. If you want to prove that something is bigger than a certain threshold (in this case if Deoxys-N has crossed the "broken" threshold), you do not compare it with something that is clearly past the threshold while being clearly bigger than the thing you're trying to compare it to. This is especially true when practically no-one used Deoxys-N last round and have no experience in using or facing it. If you can prove that Deoxys-N is actually better than Deoxys-A, then you can use the logic of "Deoxys-N is similar to Deoxys-A, therefore it is broken", but no-one can prove this because virtually no-one used it. There is a chance that Deoxys-N is similar to Deoxys-A, but similar enough that it is not broken. Say the threshold of being broken is 100. Deoxys-A is at a level of 105 while Deoxys-N is at 99. 99 is similar in size to 105, but it is not crossing the threshold. If we do not test this, we will not know. This is why I support the motion to retest Deoxys-N.
 
I haven't had the time to play much recently, too busy with school. However, I'd like to contribute my nominations. I'm not going to bother going into detail about Manaphy and Drizzle, as they're automatically suspects this round, and really, everyone knows that they're getting the boot this time anyways. So, without further ado:


Landlos/Randorosu

Woah, I put a Scarf Landlos on my first Gen V team back when the game first came out, before OU became nothing but weather. I never thought I'd be nominating this guy, but so it goes. With simple Sand Stream support, this guy can rip teams to shreds. He may not be the bulkiest thing out there, but 89/90/80 is a pretty solid defensive spread, and he has that trolly 101 Base Speed. The only priority he's weak to are Aqua Jet and Ice Shard, both of which have..... one viable user (Azumarill and Mamoswine respectively, though with Drizzle around I guess Kabutops counts too). It's best set by far is the Rock Polish set. After a single boost, it's faster than Doryuuzu, and with the boost from Sand Strength, it's Earthquake and Stone Edge are stronger that Dory's. It may have few moves outside of QuakeEdge, but it also has Earth Power, HP Ice, Grass Knot, and more importantly, the stats to go mixed. I would never have thought it, but I believe that Landlos is better than Doryuuzu. Especially since Drizzle is going to be leaving this round, I really think Landlos should get out.


Doryuuzu

Everyone knows that this guy is broken, so I don't really have to go into much detail here. Good defenses, phenomenal speed with Sand Stream support, and a high Attack stat backed by STAB Earthquake just sounds broken. Add to it the fact that most Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave users can't OHKO with those moves, and the fact that if that "counter" dies, Dory sweeps, it's fairly apparent that this Pokemon is too good for Standard play


I'd also like to nominate Deoxys (Normal Forme) to be moved down from Ubers. It didn't get a fair test, as the entire time it was legal, not only was there crazy weather abuse, as well as Darkrai and Skymin, but it was also outclassed completely by Deoxys-A. I'm not quite sure where I stand on it's tiering, as I'm sure it'll be a top Pokemon if it were to return sans Deoxys-A, but at the very least I want it to get a fair test.

I can't say that I think Latios and Rankurusu, the other two Pokemon I see everyone nominating, are broken, but I know they're both very good, and maybe they'll end up being ban-worthy once this whole weather fiasco has ended
 
Confirmed as grimm70.

I just want to say that many of you want to ban Drizzle,Doryozu,Kingdra,Rankurusu,Latios,Latias but since one week I'm thinking about Blaziken power. If Pokemon helping by weather are banned and Rankurusu,Latios,Latias too who would be able to stop him?

I think this thing is really Broken with its ability. Blaziken LO with the +Atk nature and Hi jump kick OHKO too many Pokemon with stealth rock( I saw many of you talk about sword dance but He does not really need it ^^'). He dosen't need any investisment in Satk with hidden power ice to Kill all Dragon/fly-ground type.

So I would like to nominate him( Blaziken)

Manaphy :

I agrre with all reasons people said.

Drizzle+Kingdra

I don't want to see Drizzle or swift swim ban because we would have to ban Sandstorm too after... and all climates anyway. But Kigndra helped by Drizzle is too much powerful. Choice spe Kingdra OHKO all non resistant Pokemon and 2HKO the others with a good water move such as Hydro pump ( or maybe Surf, don't calculate with this move).

If we take a look to the other swift swim users, they all need to set up before Ohko many common Pokemon so it's easier to put them out.

Concerning Doryuzu, I think we should try to ban him with Baloon first before banning him completely ^^'

(I'm sorry for the lack of arguments :d )
 

reachzero

the pastor of disaster
is a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Hi, any further discussion in this thread will be deleted and infracted. This is NOT a discussion thread, it is for voter identifications and Suspect nominations. Thank you!
 

Windsong

stumbling down elysian fields
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Ok, nominating a couple of the following Pokemon and abilities for ban.

Rankurusu

To be perfectly honest, this thing is ridiculous if played right. Magic Guard in conjunction with both its massive natural bulk and Special Attack allow it to function extremely well with a vast number of highly anti metagame sets, from the Calm Mind set, which can beat entire teams with a couple of select Pokemon (only really notably TTar and Scizor) being removed. Or the Offensive Trick Room set, which basically fucks up anything attempting to switch in, and hammering it in the face with an attack. In addition, it posses incredible amounts of bulk, allowing it to set up against a wide variety of common metagame threats.

Randorosu (Landlos)

During the previous suspect voting stage, I wouldn't have been so hot on the idea of banning Rando -- the hype all seemed to be around Dory. However, after having used Randorosu for a while, and seen it grow significantly in commonality in the metagame, it really seems that this thing is a monster. Swords Dance sets are absolutely monstrous, the two premier physical walls in the metagame (Gliscor and Skarmory) being completely unable to do much to it, as Skarmory is taking ~75% from a +2 LO Stone Edge, whereas Gliscor dies horribly to the common HP Ice. Hell, even stuff attempting to switch in to revenge the SD set will lose to almost any other set. Lati@s, switch ins, for example, are risking getting hit in the face with an LO U-Turn, or facing a +2 Rock Polished Landlos, and in general, nothing likes switching in to any of its attacks. In other words, this is the single best sand abuser in the game, and really pretty broken.
* I'd also like to say that I'd rather not nominate Dory until a consensus regarding Randorosu is formulated, as I believe that Dory isn't quite strong as seems without the support of Rando to break down walls.

Drizzle

Ah, onto the main suspect of this round. Drizzle is the most hotly debated topic at this point for a very good reason, and I'm inclined to agree with Shrang after facing him and his rain team multiple times on the ladder. Rain is just sort of ridiculous, easily in the same vein as sand, but with more options, more abusers, easier to support sweeps from, etc. Also, it's worth it to note that the main rain checks, Birijion and Nattorei, both lack the ability to keep it stopped for long, as they lack reliable recovery. And any rain team will have the ability to sweep past them with relative ease if played properly.
In other words, rain just is a bit broken in my opinion.
* I also feel that it's worth it to note that the point of this is to create an enjoyable and balanced metagame, and while rain might not be that overpowered, it certainly leave the meta a bit unbalanced.

Deo-N

I would also like to nominate the retesting of Deoxys-N for the reasons already stated in a couple of earlier posts; specifically the fact that a huge amount of the people who voted to ban it had most likely never actually tested (or played against) it, as Deoxys-A outclassed it in almost every way. I actually have some calcs and such (credit to user Blue Harvest of PO).
It must run a Hasty or Naive nature to outrun Scarf Rotom and Jolly Gyarados (and Shanderaa!). If it does this it will have less attack than Metagross, and much worse STAB. To look at it another way, Deoxy's Psychic is about 89% as powerful as Metagross's Meteor Mash assuming Deoxys is Timid.
- It can not 2HKO Prevo Stone Porygon 2 with Superpower. Porygon 2 can be as low as 75% and still avoid being 2HKOed.
- It can not 2HKO Deoxys Defense with Shadow Ball if it is Specially Defensive.
- Calm Prevo Stone Dusclops needs only 60 Special Defense EVs to guarantee survival against 2 LO Shadow Balls. It easily strikes back with Shadow Sneak or Sucker Punch. Night Shade 2HKOs as well after LO recoil.
- It can not 2HKO Calm Cresselia even if it runs no Special Defense EVs.
- Lucario and Scizor both survive some hits decently and can easily KO back.
- Metagross can hammer it with Bullet Punch and take any of its moves.
- Rotom can easily survive two of its hits with only about 60 Special Defense EVs. Only Psychic harms him.
- Spiritomb beats it, but Spiritomb sucks. Sableye also kills it, but it also sucks.
- Bronzong destroys it. Even with LO HP Fire.
- Defensive Jirachi laughs at all of his moves.
- If Genosekuto or Melotta allowed into OU they can take any hit decently. Without priority they could drop to a second hit though.
- Shuckle lol.
- Zuruzukin takes the hits ok, only disliking Superpower which it can survive two of if it runs HP EVs and intimidate (unless Deoxys runs a LOT of Attack EVs).
- Iwaparesu (Bug/Rock hermit crab) takes almost nothing from his attacks in a sandstorm assuming some defensive EVs.
- Prevo Stone Munchlax can just barely avoid a 2HKO from Superpower. Same with Snorlax.
- Forretress is 3HKOed by any non-HP Fire hit.
- Dragonite can take SOME abuse from Superpower or Shadow Ball and clip it with Extremespeed.
- It will never switch in safely, but Dugtrio permanently removes it with Sucker Punch.
- Flygon, Jirachi, Latias, Latios, Garchomp and Shaymin all beat it while holding a Scarf, and can switch in moderately safely on some on its moves.
- Wobuffet beats it, taking just 47.7% - 56.4% from Shadow Ball assuming it runs 252 sp def and 28 EVs.
- Drill mole is faster (in the sand), and can survive all of its moves except Superpower.
- CM Cobalon (Steel / Fighting legend) can survive two Superpowers and KO back. It admittedly is 2HKOed by LO Superpower + Psychic though.
- All Rain and sun sweepers are faster.
- Spartan bug takes minimal damage from any attack and easily KOs back. Avoid HP Fire I guess.

Sure, it may easily end up broken, but for now, why not innocent until proven guilty (damn, I didn't want to end this in a with cliche...)
 
Hi. Missed the cutoff by a large margin but I peaked at 1386 under mumbojimbo (around 10:00 Tues night). I laddered intensely this round and beat several of the checked off voters, so I'll add my noms. Excuse the bullets.

Drizzle
-Numerous abusers that can fill a variety of roles, Swift Swim sweepers, Gale/Thunder spammers, Rain Dish/Hydration Tanks, etc.

-Ridiculously overpowered, Swift Swim + 1.5 Water boost (which they already get STAB on) is like Sand Throw and Sand Power rolled into one. Lol if you're going to nominate Rand, picture him with an auto-Rock Polish.....

-Virtually uncounterable, Kingdra's Specs Pump wears Natt the fuck down when all he has to work with is Leech Seed. There's definitely a problem when a front-running special wall/supposed "all purpose" rain counter is being 3HKOed by a resisted attack.

-Hydration and Rest brings a whole new definition to recover stalling.

-Huge advantage in weather wars due to the fact neither Ninetales or Sandstreamers can switch in to STAB Water moves.

-I realize the same goes for Rain Dance, but Drizzle makes them constant threats that cannot be played around.

edit: Open to Aldaron's proposal

Rankurusu
-Outside of weather abusers, it's the most difficult mon to take down in the metagame.

-TR quite literally bulldozes through offensive teams. Its bulk guarantees the only setup turn it needs and after that the raw power of non-recoil LO and its massive SpAtk stat easily pick you apart. Almost always forced to sac something to it.

-With Magic Guard there is no way to stall it.

-The Bulky CM sweeper is on the same level. Turns Bliss into setup fodder as it shrugs of S-tosses while boosting to +6. Phazing only prolongs the inevitable since it is immune to all residual damage.

-Near impossible to OHKO and can recover stall anything that doesn't.

edit: seconding Blaziken. Hi Jump Kick is overpowered and setup is pretty much unstoppable due to Protect.

Dory (pretty self explanatory)
-Seriously gamebreaking with Sand Throw and a SD under its belt. EdgeQuake and a filler is all it needs for a clean sweep once its tentative counter is gone.

-As a spinner, it's basically unblockable. Switch Burungeru in and risk dealing with a drillmole thing at +2.

-Bulky enough to tank just about any super-effective priority out there and continue sweeping.

-Rock Slide flinching machine. I swear my Balloon Terak has lost more 1v1 matchups due to these. Allows it to muscle past "hard" counters.

Sand Veil/Snow Cloak

-Evasion Clause. Maximizing hax disrupts competitive play.
 
Sorry for not making the cutoff by a lot (I usually play on the PO server), but I have found rain teams without Manaphy very difficult to counter if played well. Changing the weather is the only sure, definite blow to them but if they push sweeper after sweeper it is overpowering. Either Swift Swim or Drizzle should be banned for this reason.

I will test more soon, especially to see if I can get to at least around 1250 or 1300 with those out of weather threats.
 
I peaked at 1320 as kimbo, and never bothered setting the ladder difference thing, so most of my battles were like plus 5, minus 26. anyway, I won't bother with drizzle, i think without manaphy its fine and there both suspects.

however, Doryuuzo must be banned. so easy to set up sd, and can then easily sweep

also, I want regular deoxys back in OU, at least for another testing round. he didn't get a fair shot to stay down here.

thats pretty much it, though stuff like confusion/sand veil might deserve a look since we don't like luck. I think once dory and manaphy are gone, rain and sand will be pretty equal, with sun as a sleeper. non-weather teams can win too though, i have a non-weather team that destroyes rain and sandstorm to a lesser extent, and honestly it was barely built with that purpose in mind.
 
After a little more testing, I conclude Excadrill and Latios should be banned, Manaphy I'm fine with either way if Drizzle is removed, Reuniclus I can't set up effectively (though I haven't tried Trick Room yet) and I ironically haven't faced many Landori (Landoruses?) despite all the sand teams, and haven't tried it for myself yet.
I haven't hit 1400, so you can ignore this if you want.
 

PK Gaming

Persona 5
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Doryuuzu and Wobbuffet nominations are C/P'd from the last round (my opinion didn't change on them)

Wobbufet: Shadow Tag is still a broken ability and Wobbuffet is capable of abusing it to its maximum potential. It has the bulk to survive nearly any attack and OHKO with either of its counter moves. Wobbuffet also carries Encore which forces you too attack or useless repeat a non-attacking move making the trapped Pokemon setup fodder. Yes the encore nerf hurt Wobbuffet badly but he can still do his job. Trap & kill choiced sweepers and setup his teammates.
Note: I nominated Wobbufet as a whole because it's other ability (Telepathy) hasn't been released yet.

Doryuuzu: A Pokemon with an ability that gives it 604 speed and base 135 Attack. It's movepool is lacking, but it has the bare essentials specifically Swords Dance and Rock Slide. If Doryuuzu manages to get a Swords Dance, it will sweep you because nothing can keep up with it's speed. It literally has only 1 hard counter in Gliscor, while checks like Skarmory (can't really threaten Doryuuzu / only phazes it) and Hitmontop (can't repeatedly switch into Earthquake) aren't enough to stop it. Balloon was the straw that broke the camel's back, as it gave Doryuuzu an unnatural ground immunity, giving it even more opportunities to set up and sweep teams.

Latios: Latios is fast and strong, and it hits quite hard with the Specs set. Even Steel types can be worn down by Specs Draco Meteor spam, forcing every team to run some varient of Tyranitar who is decent check at best. Blissey and Chansey cannot counter Latios because of constant threat of trick. Specs boosted Psycho Shock can 2HKO.

Rankurusu: Its quite a shame too since its so fun to use. Rankurusu is broken because of the the combination of excellent bulk and the magic guard ability. Magic guard alone makes Rankurusu ridiculously hard to take down due to its immunity to entry hazards and status, and the ability to boost up its special defense via calm mind makes it nearly impossible to kill. Rankurusu is only checked by Scizor (Tyranitar is a shaky check at best since +1 Focus Blast OHKOes) Rankurusu alone can demolish stall teams and is quite possibly the strongest Pokemon in the entire metagame.

Landlos: Landlos is so strong its funny. When physical walls like Hippowdon risk being 2HKOed by LO EQ in the sand you know there's a problem. Landlos is capable of 1-2HKOing most of the metagame. (even pokemon who resist ground can take over 50%! 0/0 Birijion takes an average of 67% from Jolly LO EQ. It is also capable of 2HKOing Skarmory and Bronzong with +2 Stone Edge. (That is ridiculous!) It is capable of running 2 very deadly sets; Rock Polish and Swords Dance. The former sweeps offensive teams while the ladder absolutely crushes them (and stall teams) Landlos only has 1 soft counter too. (Bronzong w/ HP ice) That usable special attack means that it can OHKO Gliscor (usually one of the best Landlos checks) with Hidden Power Ice.

BrightPowder/Lax incense: Non-competitive. Nobody likes facing Pokemon who hold these items and turns matches into a crapshot. It should be banned for breaking evasion clause anyway.

Edit: Above all else, I agree with Aldaron's proposal and I would like to see that tested. Otherwise I have no choice but to nominate and Landlos Doryuuzu.
 
Didn't make it the cutoff due to technical problems, here are some of my nominations.

Rankurusu/Reuniclus:

  • It is very difficult to get past. I think the trick room set is manageable, but the Calm mind set is far from manageable. It will beat any Calm Minder providing it has Psycho Shock over Psychic since it can set up on a large portion of the metagame because it has great bulk, instant recovery, and is immune to indirect forms of damage. Even Latias can't beat it if is your opponent's last pokemon. Psycho shock will get past any boosts Latias has acquired and proceed to beat. If there was a reason to run Spiritomb on a Stall teams, this pokemon is the reason. It wrecks stall and can easily 6-0 most Stall teams. It does have a few checks, however. Tyannitar is easily OHKoed by Focus Blast, and Scizor will get worn down by the repeated hits.
Doryuuzu:

  • It has one of the highest attack stats in the game, and it has a ability that doubles its speed, which makes over the the top. It has Swords Dance, Steel typing, and it often has a Ballon to get rid of half of it's checks. The other half are destroyed when Doryuuzu is holding a chople berry. It also can easily switch in thunder waves and toxics and set up. Having access to the rare rapid spin just makes it even harder to stop from setting up many times through out the battle. There a a few checks like Skarmory who can phaze it out, but really can't do anyhting else. It outspeeds every viable scarfer in the whole metagame, so one's only hope of revenging it is by Mach Punch, Vaccuum Wave, and Aqua Jet, all of which it survives, except a CB Aqua Jet from Azumarril. And if that wasn't enough just wait until it flinches past your checks with Rock Slide.
Latios:

  • Yeah, this thing wrecks nearly everything that switches in, with the exception of Steels and special walls, who are crippled by trick. Of note even if your Chansey avoids a choice item from it, it can still trick away your Evolution Stone, which makes it even harder to deal with it. With 110 base speed, it outspeeds all common pokemon in the metagame except Volotos and Starmie. It can also run a horrendous Offensive Calm Mind LO set, and will rape nearly everything. The few checks are can switch in safely. I'd say the safest bet is Choice Band Snorlax since it can take any hit, and hit back with pursuit, though Snorlax can't come in repeatably and deal with it.
Shadow Tag/Magnet Pull/Arena Trap:

  • Basically the same ability, but Magnet Pull is exclusively for Steel types, and Arena Trap for grounded pokemon. You basically get a guaranteed kill or two and your opponent can't do anything about it except run shed shell, which hinders their defensive capabilitiess. It lets you make your team sweep a lot easier. For example the Drag2Mag strategy relies on the ability to make the team succesful. It gets rid of all pokemon resistant to dragon moves, and lets your dragons utterly rape the opponents team.
Drizzle/Drought/Sandstream/Snow Warning:

  • Not fun, they basically run over all non-weather teams easily. Even other weather teams just like nothing. If you've ever played one of these teams you know what I'm talking about. Having weather for the whole game by
 
I'm gonna be honest here and say I didn't ladder at all during this round, because I just knew rain would dominate and I'd get bored within minutes. However, since everyone has the right to nominate I may as well give my opinions.

Instead of banning Reuniclus, why not just ban Magic Guard? This ability is pretty much what makes Reuniclus the massive threat that it is, since it's completely immune to the effects of entry hazards, damaging weather, poison, burn, parahax, Leech seed and, of course, Life Orb recoil. Without Magic Guard, users will be forced to either lose 10% of their HP every time they attack, which could potentially leave them open to a KO, or sacrifice the boost in power for Lefties or maybe a Colbur Berry if they're concerned about being hit with a Dark attack. It would also mean that, although weather would still be ineffective on it, it could be taken down by Leech Seed, Toxic and burn and would take extra damage if switched in on hazards, so it'd be at least easier to deal with than before. And before anyone protests and brings up the fact that Magic Guard isn't a unique ability, let's consider who else gets it. Clefable won't be seeing much use outside of UU anyway, so it's not like banning Magic Guard will completely derail the metagame in that respect, and Alakazam can't even legally use it anyway. Sigilyph/Shinbora will be hit hard, but we have to make sacrifices in order to stabilise the metagame, and I don't expect Sigilyph to be a top OU any time soon, Magic Guard or not.
tl;dr, We can ban abilities now, so why not take advantage of that?

Other things worthy of note:

Doryuuzu/Excadrill: Personally I don't think it's that broken, but it does mean you have to be able to either wall or counter it to avoid being swept, forcing people to use Skarm, Gliscor or Roopushin/Conkeldurr. There's probably others too, but the point is that with 135 base attack and the ridiculous speed stat of 604 in sand, you've got to be prepared because otherwise it'll outspeed and sweep. The problem only gets worse when you consider that it almost always manages to get a Swords Dance off.

Sure, in this round, it's been neutered somewhat by the prevelance of rain, but once Drizzle goes, Excadrill's heading back into the limelight, so banning it now means less angry nominations in the next round.

Randorosu/Landorus: Another sand sweeper, but it doesn't actually need the sand in order to rip teams apart. The worst part is that it can get both Swords Dance and Rock Polish, so it can choose to either double its already high Attack stat or its trollish 101 Speed stat. By the time you've found out which it is it's already shredding things up with a combination of Earthquake, Stone Edge (which you'll be praying will miss) and Hidden Power Ice to hit its previous arch nemesis, Gliscor. The latter move wouldn't be so bad if Landorus didn't have a base 115 Sp.Atk stat to fire it off from. Again, rain has somewhat weakened his presence, but next time round this guy will be everywhere.

That's all for now, next time I'll probably have more because I'll actually try and ladder.
 
I never even got close to 1400, i peaked at around 1300 and then fell a lot...
Anyways, i would like to nominate a few suspects this time around..



Doryuuzu: This pokemon is too powerful after a Swords dance. It's Movepool is broad enough so that it can do its job. It is almost guaranteed a kill on all of its primary checks. Nattorei gets 2Hkoed by a +2 EQ from this guy and even gliscor and Skarm can be Bested with the right support and conditions. I personally feel that it is the item 'balloon' that really pushed Dory over the edge similar to yache chomp and etc. Its blistering speed is almost unmatched except for scarf deoxys or something stupid like that. It's checks have to be kept at optimum health throughout the whole match before even considering to be able to beat this mon.



Deoxys - N: I would like Deoxys-N to be brought down from ubers for a real test. It was severely outclassed by its brother last round and almost never got any usage. The 30 less base power in its stats is certainly a Big difference especially on non-stabbed moves. It's very dificult to switch something with a 50 base Hp around much, meaning it will almost always have to come in after something else has gone down and in this meta, those few turns could make all the difference.

I would also like to say that i Support Aldaron's Proposal of Banning Swift Swim + Drizzle on the Same team. This woud at least prove once and for all if drizzle is actually broken without its primary method of abuse.

On a more personal note, i dont think that Rankurusu, latios or Randorosu (Landlos) deserve a ban at the moment. As i really havent had much trouble with any of them. Also, drought doesn't seem to be too game breaking at the moment.. but idk maybe i just havent seen enough of them around to believe they are a threat. Or the other weathers must have phazed it out.. Oh well, we'll just have to wait and see... :)

EDIT: Because of recent events (Pocket's Proposal) I am retracting my nomination of Doryuuzu as he could potentially be dealt with in the same way.
 
Not sure is this is really appropriate here, but after semi-nominating Rankurusu just after the first test and getting a ton of flaming and that (Not as much on here but i basically spent 2 hours being constantly insulted on the Smogon PO server), it's really uplifting to see people nominating it. Whether or not your decision was influenced in any way by my post, I wanted to kinda say thanks. If it goes and I'm no longer forced to run Worry Seed to have any hope of winning in a lot of my matches, I'll be really pleased. :)
Also, just because I ran the calc, max Attack Band Scizor will never OHKO 252/252 Bold Rankurusu, while +1 Focus Blast will always KO in return.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top